Checking in

Hi
Just checking in. I returned from a trip to New Mexico to visit my friend of 30 years. The trip was great. I finished OSB and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was also not surprised that Ian became a doctor and returned home. I felt all along that he was well suited to the profession and he "doth protest to much." My question was how Laura could even think about Jake knowing what and who he was and how faithful and loving a husband she had in Arthur.

BSP ~ all DQs ~ November 2007

The Boy in the Striped Pajamas by John Boyne is a cautionary tale about two boys, one the son of a commandant in Hitler’s army and the other a Jew, who come face-to-face at a barbed wire fence that separates, and eventually intertwines their lives. Set during the Holocaust, Bruno is only nine-years-old when his father, a commandant in Hitler’s army, is transferred from Berlin to Auschwitz. The house at “Out-With,” as Bruno calls it, is small, dark, and strange. He spends long days gazing out the window of his new bedroom, where he notices people dressed in striped pajamas and rows of barracks surrounded by a barbed wire fence. Bored and lonely, and not really understanding the circumstance of his new existence, Bruno sets out to explore the area and discovers Shmuel, a very thin Jewish boy who lives on the other side of the fence. An unlikely friendship develops between the two boys, but when Bruno learns that his mother plans to take her children back to Berlin, he makes a last effort to explore the forbidden territory where the boy in the striped pajamas lives.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

1. Discuss the relationship between Bruno and Gretel. Why does Bruno seem younger than nine? In a traditional fable, characters are usually one-sided. How might Bruno and Gretel be considered one-dimensional?

2. At age 12, Gretel is the proper age for membership in the League of Young Girls, a branch of Hitler’s Youth Organization. Why do you think she is not a member, especially since her father is a high-ranking officer in Hitler's army?

3. What is it about the house at Out-With that makes Bruno feel “cold and unsafe”? How is this feeling perpetuated as he encounters people like Pavel, Maria, Lt. Kotler, and Shmuel?

4. Describe Bruno's reaction when he first sees the people in the striped pajamas. Bruno asks his father about the people outside their house at Auschwitz. His father answers, “They’re not people at all Bruno.” (p. 53) Discuss the horror of this attitude. How does his father’s statement make Bruno more curious about Out-With?

5. Explain what Bruno’s mother means when she says, “We don’t have the luxury of thinking.” (p. 13) Identify scenes from the novel that Bruno’s mother isn’t happy about their life at Out-With. Debate whether she is unhappy being away from Berlin, or whether she is angry about her husband’s position. How does Bruno’s grandmother react to her son’s military role?

6. When Bruno and his family boarded the train for Auschwitz, he noticed an over-crowded train headed in the same direction. How does he later make the connection between Shmuel and that train? How are both trains symbolic of each boy’s final journey?

7. Bruno issues a protest about leaving Berlin. His father responds, “Do you think that I would have made such a success of my life if I hadn’t learned when to argue and when to keep my mouth shut and follow orders?” (p. 49) What question might Bruno’s father ask at the end of the novel?

8. What does Gretel mean when she says, “Something about the way [Bruno] was watching made her feel suddenly nervous”? (p. 28) How does this statement foreshadow Bruno’s ultimate demise?

9. A pun is most often seen as humorous. But, in this novel the narrator uses dark or solemn puns like Out-With and Fury to convey certain meanings. Bruno is simply mispronouncing the real words, but the author is clearly asking the reader to consider a double meaning to these words. Discuss the use of this wordplay as a literary device. What is the narrator trying to convey to the reader? How do these words further communicate the horror of the situation?

10. When Bruno dresses in the filthy striped pajamas, he remembers something his grandmother once said. “You wear the right outfit and you feel like the person you’re pretending to be.” (p, 205) How is this true for Bruno? What about his father? What does this statement contribute to the overall meaning of the story?

11. Discuss the moral or message of the novel. What new insights and understandings does John Boyne want the reader to gain from reading this story?

12. Discuss the differences in a fable, an allegory, and a proverb. How might this story fit into each genre?
__________

Reading schedule

November 1-8 ~ read first half of BSP (ch. 1-10)
November 8-16 ~ read 2nd half ~ discuss 1st half
November 16-23 ~ discuss any part of BSP
November 23-30 ~ start reading Dec. book

Clicking this link will bring up all of our discussion posts about BSP.

Misc.

I was able to vote yesterday! At least poor old Night Journal got one vote.

I also went ahead and ordered Boy in the Striped Pajamas as I realized that my number 2 library position would not get the book to me very soon. As soon as the December book is selected (looks like Cold Comfort Farm is the strong contendor), I am going to see how popular the book is so I'll have a better feel for whether I'll be be able to get it from the library. I prefer library books, but am willing to buy if needed. I charged my son's funeral in August on a card that gives me amazon.com coupons so I can read quite a few books from this sad charge. He loved to read though so it seems like a sweet reminder of him. (As if I need reminders of him.)

I think Ian opted to stay in Straun because he was by nature someone who wanted to do the "right thing" and he had a strong sense of serving the community and of his home. He was torn between wanting to follow in his father's footsteps and wanting to be his own person and leaving home.

Actually, my oldest son was that way and his preference of staying near home probably prevented him from branching out to make more money in his field (technical work backstage for various productions). He was trying also to get on a crew that had steam engines (trains) and I think that if he had succeeded in that (paying rather than volunteer work), he would have left our area.

After Carter's death, I thought Ian might have left to try to flee bad memories, but apparently this made him feel more obligated to the community. His love of Laura figured into it somewhat, but it didn't sound like he had much contact with her after the accident.

BSP ~ reading schedule

The Boy in the Striped Pajamas (BSP) by John Boyne is a children's book, though in other places it is called a YA book (Young Adult). Nevertheless, it is easy reading and won't take us a full month to complete. Therefore, I suggest we try to read half of it the first week and discuss that much while reading the second half the following week. During the third week, we'll finish our discussion. That means we will start our December reading during the final 7-8 days of November and be ready to start discussing that book on the first day of December. Here's a summary of the book, which is called a fable, followed by our new reading schedule.

Berlin 1942

When 9-year-old Bruno returns home from school one day, he discovers that his belongings are being packed in crates. His father has received a promotion and the family must move from their home to a new house far far away, where there is no one to play with and nothing to do. A tall fence running alongside stretches as far as the eye can see and cuts him off from the strange people he can see in the distance.

But Bruno longs to be an explorer and decides that there must be more to this desolate new place than meets the eye. While exploring his new environment, he meets another boy whose life and circumstances are very different to his own, and their meeting results in a friendship that has devastating consequences.

Reading schedule

November 1-8 ~ read first half of BSP (ch. 1-10)
November 8-16 ~ read 2nd half ~ discuss 1st half
November 16-23 ~ discuss any part of BSP
November 23-30 ~ start reading Dec. book

Clicking this link will bring up all of our discussion posts about BSP.

OSB ~ all DQs ~ October 2007

The Other Side of the Bridge ~ by Mary Lawson ~ has at least four different covers.

Set against the backdrop of northern Ontario’s haunting landscapes, The Other Side of the Bridge opens with an unforgettable image of Arthur and Jake Dunn, two brothers whose jealousies will take them beyond the edge of reason, to a deadly point of no return. The sons of a farmer, they come of age during the 1930s, when money is tight and a world war is looming. When a beautiful young woman named Laura moves into their community, she unwittingly propels their sibling rivalry to its breaking point. Years later, the local doctor’s son, Ian, takes a job at the Dunn farm. His mother has left the family, and he develops a troubling attachment to Laura. As he desperately searches for direction in his own life, he stumbles onto a secret that forever alters the course of Arthur’s.
__________

OSB ~ discussion questions

Prologue
Chapters 1-5
Luck, life, assumptions
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 1-13 + epilogue
One more question

__________

Clicking this link will bring up all of our discussion posts about OSB.

OSB ~ one more DQ

Kristina and Margreet have an interesting discussion going on here about the question:

33. Why did Ian stay in Struan?

How about more of us consider this question? Why do you think he stayed?

Books still on the list ~ time for final VOTING

It's Saturday and I have eliminated the books that received no votes. This is what we have left, in order of popularity:

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle ~ (6 votes)
Gilded Chamber ~ (4 votes)
Cold Comfort Farm ~ (4 votes) (in earlier voting)
Night Journal ~ (3 votes)
No. 1 Ladies Agency ~ (3 votes)
Family Tree ~ (2 votes)
Distinguished Guest ~ (1 vote)
Water for Elephants ~ (1 vote)

I am eliminating the bottom three so we have exactly five choices, the number allowed by the voting thingy. I'll list the five in reverse alphabetical order and ask you to vote between now and Wednesday. On Thursday the book with the highest number of votes will be our December book, and we'll be ready to make new suggestions (like Margreet's Dutch books) and vote soon for our January book. I hope this satisfies everyone. If not, please comment on this post.
__________

UPDATE: The voting thingy would have let me do lots more this time. I don't understand why it wouldn't allow that when we had a list of 15. Nevertheless, I think I'll leave it as is, and we can add back any of these books later, if we choose.

OSB

Caboose said:

23. How was Ian shaped by an era of greater liberation, with television for entertainment and “risqué” music on the radio?

Maybe it’s my age, but to me we live in an era when television for entertainment, music on the radio, and access to computers is very dangerous for our children. All right of entry to these home/ school invasions need to be watched closely by adults. The attention needed for raising children in today society, must be frightening for all parents.

24. What is the riskiest romantic decision you have made?

I have lived with a man for forty years without a marriage license, which was a personal decision I made.

26. Discuss the novel’s title.

Sounds to me like an interesting title that could mean anything, a change in beliefs, a conquest or just making a gigantic decision and living with the consequences.

Do you think people live mostly in the present? Or do many people live in the past, always remembering or maybe feeling regret? Or do some live in the future, always scheming about how to get rich quick or living for the day when things will change?

I sure wish my mind would let me live in the present. I am one of those people who can not forget the past, on the other hand, I think the past helps you face the future, I look at the past as knowledge, which I can share with those who will listen and grow with wisdom. I see people who think they are running scams to get rich quick and watch them fail. I would not want to see us go back to the horse and buggy days, but would like to see us go back in mind and spirit to a more accommodating time. Surly there must be a happy medium.

OSB

That's interesting, Kristina, that you were disappointed when Ian took over his dad's practice. I know what you mean, he would have been able to leave the small town. I, on the other hand, guessed very early in the book that Ian, dispite his silent protest, was cut out to be a doctor. The way he kept his calm in a crisis, and helped out his dad after the mother had left them. But yes, he could have been a doctor anywhere. So why did he stay in Struan? What caused his not being able to break free of the town he grew up in?

I used the headlines as a bit of trivia. As a way to know what was happening in the outside world, and to have a bit of a timeframe.

Shirley mentioned the fact that Ian could have kept quiet about Jake and Laura. yes, indeed! it was not a very commendable thing to do, although I do believe he had only the best of intentions. So why did he tell on them? I'm sure he regretted it for the rest of his life...

OSB

I'm not really sure I liked this book. Granted, it's not the kind of book I normally read, but I'm trying to decide why I didn't like it. I don't think it had enough "substance" for me. Kind of like, when you eat something and it didn't quite fill you up or it wasn't exactly what you wanted. That's how I feel about this book.
I agree with Margreet that most of the incidents in the book were quite over the top. Maybe that was to get a reaction, or to keep us interested, or just to explain a future action. I'm not quite sure.
Answering a few of Bonnie's questions, I was thoroughly disappointed that Ian followed in his father's footsteps in the end. He was the only character, other than Jake, who was remotely interested in leaving that small town. I thought he would have been perfect for the "outside world".
To be honest Bonnie, I really wasn't paying attention to the headlines at the beginning of the chapters. I read them, but really didn't take them in, if that makes sense. I think maybe at the beginning of the book I wasn't sure what they were and after that just skipped them altogether.
I can't say enough about the characters though!! I think that these characters were very well developed, the kind that leave you feeling like you're missing friends after you're done reading the book. That part I loved!!

OSB

Shirley said:

Even though this was a book that I thoroughly enjoyed, I guess I am just too much into World Without End to give much more thought to Other Side of the Bridge.

Margreet presented some good questions about the author's need to have Arthur's father killed on his tractor the very first day he used it and to have Jake accidently kill Carter when he tried to escape from Arthur. I thought these were dramatic, but I guess I am so cold to things that neither event bothered me that much.

I wonder more about Ian's role in the episode by telling Arthur about seeing Jake and Laura together. If he had kept quiet.... Arthur sure did impress me though the way he was loyal to Laura and expressed his love for her. Although I wondered why Laura found any temptation with Jake after he had ditched her the first time, I did like that she did remain with Arthur and apparently did love him.

Chapters of your life?

What headlines would be most significant in marking the chapters of your life?

This is part of one question found HERE.

Hey, buddies, I posted the final set of questions for The Other Side of the Bridge by Mary Lawson, better known now as OSB. Here's more of what you'll find in that post:

What dreams for the future did each of these generations possess?
What dreams did YOU have for your future? Did they happen?

What is the riskiest romantic decision you have made?

Why is Ian so transformed by the “day of the dragonflies” that concludes chapter nine?

What does it mean for the characters to reach the other side of the bridge?

How did you react to the knowledge that Ian followed in his father’s footsteps after all?

Pick and choose the questions that interest you. Nobuddy has to answer all the questions, just whatever you would like.

OSB finished, SPOILERS

I finished OSB many days ago, and had almost forgotten about it already....bad me. But there is something I need to throw in here about our october read.

As much as I enjoyed the book, I did find that some events were way over the top. Like the tractor accident Arthur's father had, ON THE VERY FIRST DAY HE DROVE THE DARN THING. I just don't see the point of giving us readers such a tragic event. Is that to shock us? To explain why Arthur hated tractors? Surely she could have been a bit more subtle than this...

And then, the grande finale, where little Carter is run over by the car in which Jake tries to get away from his raging brother Arthur. He isn't injured, no, he is KILLED. Why?

As most of us, I am guilty of watching a few daily soaps. I know that soaps need these kinds of events when an actor wants to get out of the story. But in a book?

Dutch authors

This afternoon Bonnie called me...that was such fun!! Thank you again Bonnie for the nice talk we had. She asked me if I could give you ladies the names of a few contemporary Dutch authors.
We could look at a few of them for next year maybe? This way you might read a 'Dutch' book you otherwise wouldn't have thought of. Oh well, I'll just throw in the names of my favourites, and we'll see how it goes.

female authors:
Renate Dorrestein
Hella Haasse
Anna Enquist

males:
Maarten 't Hart
Arthur Japin
Adriaan van Dis
Arnon Grunberg

I can't give names of books, because I don't know the English titles. I'm not even sure all of these have been translated, but I assume most of them have. These authors all have published within the last 3 years.

Voting so far

First, by a vote of 4 to 3, Cold Comfort Farm is our December choice. This is too close, so we need a better method of deciding.

Cold Comfort Farm 4 (57%)
One of the other books 3 (42%)
Votes so far: 7
Poll closed

Voting on the list in the next post down looks like this, but we don't have many votes in yet:

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle ~ (6 votes)
Cold Comfort Farm ~ (4 votes) (in earlier voting)
Curious Incident ~ (0)

Devil and Miss Prym ~ (0)
Distinguished Guest ~ (1 vote)
Family Tree ~ (2 votes)

Gilded Chamber ~ (4 votes)
Jonathan Strange ~ (0) very long book
March ~ (0)

Night Journal ~ (3 votes)
No. 1 Ladies Agency ~ (3 votes)
Summons to Memphis ~ (0)

Water for Elephants ~ (1 vote)
Wish You Well ~ (0)
World Without End ~ (0) very long book

Voting will end on Friday evening. On Saturday I'll eliminate any that have no votes. Please vote by leaving a comment on the next post ... or on this one. Thanks.

UPDATE: I have eliminated the two very long books, but we could decide later to do a long book over a two or three month period. That hasn't worked so well in the past, however.

Let's eliminate some

Look over the books that have been suggested and leave a comment with your top TWO. Which 2 books would you like us to read and discuss? I hope this will eliminate some because the voting thingy won't let us vote for this many.

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle ~ by Barbara Kingsolver
Cold Comfort Farm ~ by Stella Gibbons
Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time ~ by Mark Haddon

Devil and Miss Prym ~ by Paulo Coelho
Distinguished Guest ~ by Sue Miller
Family Tree ~ by Barbara Delinsky

Gilded Chamber ~ by Rebecca Kohn
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell ~ by Susanna Clarke
(Marg pointed out this is also big, so I looked it up ... 800 pages!)
March ~ by Geraldine Brooks

Night Journal ~ by Elizabeth Crook
No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency ~ by Alexander McCall Smith
Summons to Memphis ~ by Peter Taylor

Water for Elephants ~ by Sara Gruen
Wish You Well ~ by David Baldacci
World Without End ~ by Ken Follett
(Yikes! This last one is 1,024 pages long and only available in hardback.)

Book Buying Online

I'm making this a POST instead of a comment because it's about books in general. Also, I didn't know where I'd post it as a comment and I wanted people to see it and respond. I hope that's okay.

For those of your who buy books online, I have a few questions.

I buy a lot of books to begin with and now that I've discovered book clubs I'm buying even more, especially with all the talk about what else everyone's reading and recommending, so I'm exploring this option to see if I can get more books for my money -- see.. I didn't say pay less for my books.

What websites do you shop from? Do you buy new or used? If used, are the conditions reliably rated on that site? How much do books usually costs on the site? How long does it usually take to receive your order? Have you had a good experience shopping there? As well as anything else I might need to know about the process.

I've ordered text books online when I was in college and grad school but usually from B&N or the publisher's site. A few months ago, I ordered a used book from Amazon.com for a book club read when I couldn't find it locally. The book was in great conditions but took nearly three weeks to arrive. I was pricing our November and possible December selection on there and it seemed like you had to pay $3.99 for shipping for each used book you got. Adding that to the price of the book makes most of the books I looked at only a dollar or two under $10, some being $10 or above. I usually pay $8-12, sometimes more, sometimes less, for a paperback. So the hassle of checking prices, ordering, and possible long wait times to get the books seemed like this might not be as worthwhile as I had originally hoped.

But, a lot of people order their books online, cheaply and with good results. So, I'm polling other book club members looking for more information since googling various terms related to what I was looking for didn't yield much in the way of productive results, mostly a lot of meta searches of individual online book sites comparing prices.

So, please leave me some COMMENTS ya'll and help me out! Thanks!

--- Anne ---

OSB discussion questions ~ chapters 1-13 + epilogue

21. What was the effect of the novel’s timeline? How did it compare to your own experience of the continuum between present moments and memory? What parallels run between Ian’s life and Arthur’s?

22. Discuss the use of the headlines that open each chapter. What do they say about the local and global concerns of humanity? In what way were the headlines timeless, and in what way did they convey the unique attributes of this locale? What headlines would be most significant in marking the chapters of your life?

23. What is the significance of the two time periods in the lives of the characters? How were the Dunn brothers shaped by a youth of economic hardship and the presence of POWs? How was Ian shaped by an era of greater liberation, with television for entertainment and “risqué” music on the radio? What dreams for the future did each of these generations possess?

24. Discuss the nature of love and marriage as described in the novel. What made Jake so irresistible to Laura? What made Dr. Christopherson’s wife choose another man? Was Laura’s appeal strictly physical when she first moved to town? What is the riskiest romantic decision you have made?

25. Why is Ian so transformed by the “day of the dragonflies” that concludes chapter nine? What did these memories mean to him?

26. Discuss the novel’s title. What does it mean for the characters to reach the other side of the bridge? Could Jake and Arthur ever be free of the wounds they inflicted on each other?

27. Who ultimately was responsible for Jake’s fall from the bridge? Who ultimately paid the price (literally, in terms of his medical bills, and figuratively as well)?

28. How did you react to the knowledge that Ian followed in his father’s footsteps after all? Did he make the right decision?

29. Laura confides in Arthur soon after meeting him, telling him she doesn’t believe that God cares about humanity (Chapter Ten). How would you have responded to her?

30. Discuss the cycles of tragedy conveyed in the Dunn family history, from the death of Arthur’s father to the closing scenes of Carter. How do characters cope with the concepts of fate versus intent? How do they cope with regret?

31. Dr. Christopherson and Ian talk about their puppy:

"The advantage of a small brain," his father said. "She's living in the moment and the moment is good."

"That sounds like a philosophy, not a small brain."

His father considered it. "You could be right." (p. 268)

Is it possible to live in the moment? Do you think people live mostly in the present? Or do many people live in the past, always remembering or maybe feeling regret? Or do some live in the future, always scheming about how to get rich quick or living for the day when things will change?

32. What else about the book would you like to talk about? Do you have questions that weren't asked? Or questions you still wonder about?

Anne's OSB Chapters 1-5 Disscussion Questions

5. How were Jake and Arthur affected by their family dynamic? Did their mother pamper Jake too much? Did their father favor Arthur because he was easier to manage, or was Jake difficult to manage because of his father’s favoritism?

Each parent in the Dunn family favored one of their sons more. Perhaps it was because Henry and Mary were fairly different from each other. Mary was intelligent in book learning and read the Sunday papers. She inclined her affections to Jake, the son who did well in school and was social. Henry was hard working and knowledgeable about running a farm. He favored his sturdy, hard-working, obedient son, Arthur.

From Mary's point of view, she wasn't pampering Jake. She just wanted him to have a "better" life than working on a farm and she saw getting as much schooling as he could as a way out of farming for Jake. Henry viewed it as Jake not carrying his weight at home and on the farm.

I think Henry favor Arthur because he was more like him. They had things in common. Neither enjoyed school and while Arthur may tired of endless farm chores, he did them well and didn't shrink from doing them. Jake did shrink from doing his share of chores. Had Jake been more amicable to doing his share of the work, Henry might have bonded more with his second son.

6. How are the characters shaped by the novel’s setting? What do the natural surroundings of the town mean to them? What separates those who want to escape from those who bask in the town’s familiarity?

The Other Side of the Bridge is set in Struan, a remote, rural town in northern Canada on the edge of a 50 mile long lake. It's not a place many would choose to move to and young residents growing up might long to move away, but others couldn't imagine living anywhere else. In a town as small as Struan, the residents all know one another and one another's business. Living in this kind of community would impact a person's life more than living in a large city.

Ian and Pete especially enjoy fishing on the lake. Pete, a Native Canadian (or Canadian Indian?), fishes like it's in his blood. Ian ably catches fish but only a fraction of what Pete catches. Pete doesn't want to leave his lake-side home. Ian longs to be somewhere else but fears missing the lake and being drawn back home, caught by the life of following in his father's footsteps that everyone expects him to lead.

Aside from Ian, his mother, Beth, Jake, and perhaps his mother, Mary, want more from life than living in a small rural town. While Henry, Arthur, Dr. Christopherson, Ian's father, and Pete seem content or even enjoy the peace of a slower life. I think it comes down to the person. Some people can't imagine ever going beyond the furthest place they've been while others feel trapped and caged. Those people might love the hustle and bustle of a large city while the others would feel overwhelmed and lost. As to what would make someone grow into one of those groups over the other, I think it would be a combinations of personality, skills, and interests.

7. Take a look at the men's relationships with their mothers. As a pre-schooler, Arthur "already knew that his mother's happiness depended on Jake's well-being" (p. 28), while school-boy Jake "had great confidence in his mother's ability to win arguments on his behalf" (p. 36). Ian's opinion of his mother shortly before she left was that she "had two moods nowadays, absent or annoyed, and whichever one she was in he invariably found he preferred the other" (p. 13). What do these relationships look like to you?

Jake was small and sickly as a young child taking his mother's attention away from Arthur who only tried to please her more so she'd pay attention to him again. So Arthur keep Jake safe in hopes that his mother would notice and give him the same attention she paid to Jake. Jake, I think, took for granted that his mother would always be in his corner and do whatever she could for him. Mary related to Jake better as the boys grew older because he was more similar to her while Arthur took after his father.

I think Ian would have liked his mother to care more about him. I think Beth did love Ian but she was one of those people who felt stifled by living in a remote, rural town. She seemed depressed. I think she just wanted someone to care about what she wanted as well as wanting to be somewhere else.

8. Quote something from the book that captured your attention, and tell us what you thought of it.

Ian on visiting Toronto the previous summer with his mother (pg 16): "What had impressed him most had not been the size of the city or the noise or even the buildings--he'd been expecting all that. What had struck him most forcibly was the fact that when he walked down the street he hadn't known anyone. Thousands upon thousands of strangers. He'd found it amazing. Liberating!"

This passage caught my attention because it said very well some of what I try to explain to my friends when they don't understand why I miss living in a big city so much.

9. Can you relate to any of the characters? In what way?

I can relate to Ian for not being content living where he is, but still loving certain aspects of it. I can related to Jake's love of school and learning, but not to Jake as a person.

Something light for December?

Caboose said, "My choice for a December read would be something light, that we could laugh and enjoy a little silliness."

Tricia said, "I really like this idea. Though, I have no idea what that would be. I've been wanting to read Cold Comfort Farm for some time, but haven't gotten to it. That might be fun."

Bonnie said, "I agree that a light-hearted book sounds good for December. I looked up the one Tricia suggested, Cold Comfort Farm by Stella Gibbons, which is a satire on the English Gothic novel ... and it's only 256 pages long, a short book for the busy month of December. Amazon offers three 'Most Helpful Customer Reviews' that make this book sound like it could really be a lot of fun. Click HERE for the three reviews ... and click on the picture of the book above to enlarge it and read about the characters."
__________

Though I had given us another day to vote, it really looks like The Boy in Striped Pajamas will be our November book, and we can add The Memory Keeper's Daughter to the next list for voting.

Here's the post with all books suggested for December.

Reply to Questions

Arthur, mild mannored, has made the universal mistake of assuming something & then getting kicked in the teeth afterwards. He thought Jake was just fooling around under the bridge. After all from past experience...... It's like the boy who cried wolf too much & nobody believed him when he finally was telling the truth. Plus, I am assuming that Arthur will feel worse about the accident for years to come, than will Jake. Recklace Jake will continue to do just what he wants & not think about the consequences. It was rediculous of Arthur's mother to make Arthur go to school forever, even though I understand her reasoning. She meant well. She cares for her children, but doesn't understand that she lets Jake get away with everything & treats him like a baby. Jakes mom could have made him feed the chickens & milk the cows. Sounds like she needed a reality check.
Ian knows that he is going to college, & everyone expects him to go as well, but Pete must think that he knows that there is no way he is going to college. Maybe it's because he can't afford to go to college, or can't get accepted because he's a Canadian Indian or maybe he's not interesed in going. Ian would make a fantastic Doctor, but he wants to make the choice of what he wants to be. He really has no yearning to follow another dream, except for fishing & he's not good at that. How many of us was in that position at that age. I had no idea what I wanted to do for a living. I knew what I liked to do for fun.
Cathy falls in love with Ian & wants to marry him. It's as simple as that. Ian just wants a girlfriend, but he's just not into her. He has a crush on an older, married woman, Laura. Laura is everything he wishes his mother was. A caring mother who takes care of her family & would never desert them, because she loves them so much. She's also easy on the eyes. Ian just wants to know that she is there, so that he feels safe as he stalks around the house. Too bad he didn't have an Aunt or Grandmother around. Toby

Carole's answer ~ OSB

Caboose wrote:

19. And here's how Cathy made Ian feel:
She was so enthusiastic, that was the problem. Her enthusiasm wore him out. Has that ever happened to you?

Once a coworker said to me,” I’ve been here for twenty years and I don’t clean, stock shelves or check for expiration dates”. Shocked I just continued to do my job. My mother once said, when someone is paying you to work they expect you to do a job and you expect them to pay you an hourly wage. I worked the graveyard shift, 11 to 7… I stocked shelves, checked for outdated product, drank lots of coffee and walked the halls just to stay awake. I was enthusiastic, I showed up for work to do a job, sometimes it was not the job I was hired to do but work is work. To me it is like saying I will clean the bathroom sink but I won’t touch the commode. Or I will change the diaper only if I can toss it in the trash. Gee, I washed all my babies diapers out and reused them, I could not afford to use disposables. I see those looks of people who are irritated with my quick step, high expectation and way of life to push forward. I also notice the placid faces, and often wonder what makes me feel good must really annoy them. I remember when I was down, did not care about anything, age and illness has taken away some of my gusto. I have spoken to ladies who live here, mostly older then me, who tell me we just never talked about sex, politics or religion without the minister being present. I wonder if there is a happy medium between who is correct and what is too much information?

Replies to Questions on Chapters Up to 9

14. We haven't talked about Jake's fall yet, when he was showing off and Arthur was tired of Jake's foolishness. Then IT happened, the defining event of their lives:
"Art!" -- his voice a shriek -- "I'm going to fall.""Good," Arthur said. A word that would haunt him for the rest of his life.He felt Jake fall. Felt his weight leave the bridge. Just like that.What did you think of the two when you read that? Arthur later blames himself and always, always feels guilty. Should he feel guilty? Later, Arthur is confused that Jake doesn't tell their parents what Arthur had said. Why do you think Jake didn't tell?

Given Jake's past behavior and that even in this incident, he was clowning around rather than helping Arthur I think his fall served him right and I can certainly understand Arthur's comment, "Good!" Having someone get what they deserve (whether good or bad) seems justified. However, I can understand Arthur's feeling of guilt. Even though I have now finished the book, I don't understand why Jake didn't tell. Perhaps he realized that he was at fault so was just glad that Arthur rescued him (the latter in the version he told Laura) or perhaps he did want to have this in his arsenel of weapons to use against others.



15. After the casts came off, Jake had a limp. Why do you suppose Mary Lawson gave her character a limp? In the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, Jacob (the younger) has a limp after wrestling with an angel (or a man) on the night before meeting his brother 20 years after having cheated him out of their father's blessing. Do you think Mary Lawson had that story in mind when she was writing about Jacob and Arthur? Jake, of course, used that limp to his advantage.

I suspect that Lawson did have the story of the Biblical Jacob/Jake in mind when she gave Jake his limp.


16. Arthur was still in the eleventh grade at age 19, and a friend said to him:
"Why don't you just stop goin', Art? She can't make you. You're bigger'n she is." Arthur thought about it. Imagined himself standing in the kitchen, saying, "I ain't goin', Mum. That's all there is to it. I just ain't goin'." But he could never get the picture to come clear. He had never defied her and guessed he never would. (p. 107)What did you think about Arthur at this age? What would you have wanted to say to him, if you were his friend? What would you have done in his place?

I agree with Arthur's friend that the misery of going to school exceeded its value. It is unfortunate that school learning is such a struggle for some students. This school system apparently did not pass students along in the system which may or may not have its merits. I think that Arthur was probably too much concerned about pleasing his Mom and should have had the confidence needed to rebel against those things which were important to him. Her goal for an education for him is positive, but I didn't think it was very realistic since school was such a struggle for him. I hated school, but didn't have the learning difficulty Arthur struggled with and the thought never seriously entered my mind of not going to school.

17. When Arthur was rejected by the army because his feet were flat, his mother said he'd be "free to carry on with his education." His father said, "If he can't fight, he has to farm." And Arthur thought, "Freedom. Nineteen years old, flat-footed and riddled with guilt, but free at last." (All quotes are from p. 114, hardback edition.) "Free at last" reminded me of Martin Luther King's speech, but in what way was Arthur now free? What did this feeling of freedom mean for Arthur?

I think the main freedom for Arthur was not having to be belittled each day like he was at school for not suceeding in academics. When farming, he was able to be successful and not stuck all day in the classroom.

18. Ian often seems angry or frustrated, but I could relate to the way he felt one day:
Ian cycled home, anger and frustration gnawing at him. He wished he could withdraw from everything -- go and live in a cave. He couldn't imagine how mankind had managed to make such a mess of things. (p. 131)I (Bonnie) almost laughed because I remember when my children were small I had a half-way joke I'd tell people: "I intend to have a nervous breakdown, just as soon as I find the time." Has anyone else ever felt this way?

There are times that I do prefer to be alone. At work, I like taking my breaks without my coworkers just to get away. I think it is good to have a balance between alone time and time with other people (especially friends and family).

19. And here's how Cathy made Ian feel:
She was so enthusiastic, that was the problem. Her enthusiasm wore him out.Has that ever happened to you?

YES! One of my coworkers is quite the Pollyanna enthusiastic type. At first, it was refreshing as our team tended to be rather quiet and drab. However, it does become wearing after awhile. Someone from another team commented that she wondered how long it would last as she remembers feeling that upbeat and enthusiastic when she first started working in our office. Fortunately, this upbeat coworker is bright and does care about others instead of being as self-centered as Cathy seemed to be. However, in part of her energetic enthusiasm, this coworker is in the cubicle next to me also has superb hearing and listens in to my telephone conversations which can be irritating. When the coroner called with questions and later results about my son's death, I really resented having her near so left the building and talked to him on my cell phone.

20. The fellow who was charged in the fight which caused the death of the logger was arrested, and Ian wondered,
"What'll happen to him?""He'll be shipped down to the district jail in Haileybury. I think he's going on Monday. They've got a presiding judge there."So many place names are made up by an author that I usually just make a mental note and skim over them, but this line stopped me in my tracks ... because someone from Haileybury, Ontario, Canada visited the blog this week! If you are still around, tell us a little about the area. If any of you Book Buddies are familiar with Struan or Haileybury or any other part of the book's setting, tell us about it, please.

The author's note is that Straun is fictional. However, the descriptions of the places all seem so real I feel that I have visited them.
Another message board I am on made reference this week to the poor health care under in Ireland and Canada. Since the current health care misery in the United States, I am more curious about the experience of others in countries that have more universal coverage than the United States has.

Suggest December books HERE

Okay, let's work on some books for December. Shall we include the book left over from this weekend's voting in the December list? We need suggestions NOW, so please think of something you would like to read and put it in the comments for this post. I'm going to suggest a big list this time, from books being considered by a group I'm a part of. But please, please, please don't let one or two of us suggest all the books. Add something you've been considering or have on your TBR pile. I'll keep adding all books suggested to this post, so we'll have all the nominations in one place.

Water for Elephants
by Sara Gruen
__________

The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency
by Alexander McCall Smith
__________

A Summons to Memphis
by Peter Taylor
__________

Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time
by Mark Haddon
__________

March
by Geraldine Brooks
__________

Wish You Well
by David Baldacci
__________

The Distinguished Guest
by Sue Miller
__________

Animal, Vegetable, Miracle
by Barbara Kingsolver
__________

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell
by Susanna Clarke
__________

World Without End
by Ken Follett
__________

The Night Journal
by Elizabeth Crook
__________

Family Tree
by Barbara Delinsky
__________

The Gilded Chamber
by Rebecca Kohn
(maybe after the new year)
__________

The Devil and Miss Prym
by Paulo Coelho
__________

Cold Comfort Farm
by Stella Gibbons

Vote Failure

I tried to vote for Memory Keeper's Daughter, but even though I am signed in I received the error message that my vote could not be processed.

Voting for November book

Two books have been suggested so far. Should we have a few more? Our very first poll is at the top of the sidebar, but I want you to add comments here. I think we should decide more than two weeks ahead of time, but nobuddy has suggested any other books yet. Please comment on this post about how we should select books for the future.

This vote is a test of two things: (1) whether I'm doing it right, having never done this before; and (2) what your interests are. I intend to keep us updated here, even though the poll shows how the voting is going. For one thing, anyone can vote, but your comments here will tell us what we Book Buddies think.
__________

Bonnie said, "I think we should pick one of these two for now, then add book suggestions for December NOW, so we can vote early."

Shirley said, "This sounds like a good plan to me! I prefer having at least two weeks advance notice of the next book."

Margreet said, "I am not going to read with you in November, because I have a few Dutch favourites on the shelf I want to read first."

Marg said, "I like the idea of voting early so that I can at least try and schedule my reading, and get my library request in early."

Kristina said, "I like the idea of voting, and suggesting for December soon. I too like to be a scheduler and either buy or get the book at the library in time."

Jo said, "I think we should vote on these two now and choose our Dec read soon. I like having advance notice. I belong to two face to face clubs and I'd like the opportunity to schedule my books."

Kristina's Answers to OSB Questions 14-20

14. What did you think of the two when you read that? Arthur later blames himself and always, always feels guilty. Should he feel guilty? Later, Arthur is confused that Jake doesn't tell their parents what Arthur had said. Why do you think Jake didn't tell?

I think Arthur had finally had enough, and rightfully so. I think he was concentrating on what he was doing, and finally expressed his feelings. I don't think he should feel guilty at all because Jake was always making Arthur's life miserable and "cried wolf" numerous times. Arthur wasn't sure what to believe. I've not read any further than Chapter 9 but if I have to take a guess at why Jake didn't tell, it's probably because he's waiting. He has the kind of attitude that he knows the "not knowing why" is probably killing Arthur. He knows that when the time comes he can use it against him. Who knows?

15. After the casts came off, Jake had a limp. Why do you suppose Mary Lawson gave her character a limp? In the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, Jacob (the younger) has a limp after wrestling with an angel (or a man) on the night before meeting his brother 20 years after having cheated him out of their father's blessing. Do you think Mary Lawson had that story in mind when she was writing about Jacob and Arthur? Jake, of course, used that limp to his advantage.

Some part of me thinks, you get what you deserve or your just rewards as some say. So the biblical Jacob got what he deserved after he cheated his brother out of his blessing. But I think he got that when his father-in-law switched Rachel for Leah at his wedding. Anyway, another part of me thinks that Mary Lawson had a version of that story in mind. Making Jake have a limp means he got what he deserved for being so stupid at times. I also think that part of it has to do with Jake's character. She could have made him the character that comes out of that ordeal without a scratch on him, and therefore thinks he's invincible. But that would have caused his father to MAKE him do farm work. I think it's part of Jake's character to use the limp as an excuse to get out of work, get pity, and whatever else he decides to cook up, but I also think it had a lot to do with how the other characters around him would react.

16. What did you think about Arthur at this age? What would you have wanted to say to him, if you were his friend? What would you have done in his place?

I think Arthur was always Arthur. He will always be obedient to his mother. However if I were his friend, I wouldn't have told him to just flat out be disobedient and not go. But I think I would have done the same thing that Arthur did, tried to make a plea to his mother about his father needing him on the farm. I think Arthur did it right.

17. When Arthur was rejected by the army because his feet were flat....."Free at last" reminded me of Martin Luther King's speech, but in what way was Arthur now free? What did this feeling of freedom mean for Arthur?


I think it was just what Arthur wanted to do. He didn't want to be in school but didn't see a way out without defying his mother, which he would never do. So to finally have his father come to his rescue was great! I also think that he didn't really want to go into the army except as an excuse to get out of school. So in the end it all worked out in his favor and he was "free at last" to do exactly what he wanted.

18. Ian often seems angry or frustrated, but I could relate to the way he felt one day....."I intend to have a nervous breakdown, just as soon as I find the time." Has anyone else ever felt this way?


I feel this way a lot, especially when things don't go my way. If I want to have a nervous breakdown....I usually do LOL. But, now that I'm pregnant and about to have a baby in Dec or Jan., I have a feeling that my "breakdowns" will be few and far between or like Bonnie "just as soon as I find the time"!!


19. And here's how Cathy made Ian feel:
She was so enthusiastic, that was the problem. Her enthusiasm wore him out.Has that ever happened to you?

OMG!! Those annoying people (usually little blond girls LOL) who are always perky and seem to be having the best day and want to tell you all about it, just as you are having the worst day of your life.....LOL yes I've had that happen...plenty!

20. So many place names are made up by an author that I usually just make a mental note and skim over them, but this line stopped me in my tracks ... because someone from Haileybury, Ontario, Canada visited the blog this week! If you are still around, tell us a little about the area. If any of you Book Buddies are familiar with Struan or Haileybury or any other part of the book's setting, tell us about it, please.

I agree....do share! Not being familiar with Canada, I just assumed it was made up like always. That's great to know it's a real place!

Luck, life, assumptions ~ OSB

11. The scene where Ian helped his father work on the cut and profusely-bleeding logger was very powerful. Ian himself was shocked that the man died under his hands between one breath and the next, and his meditations took him here:

Good luck. Maybe that's all it was. Maybe the whole of life depended not on how hard you tried, how determined you were, how sensible, how smart: maybe the whole shooting match depended on luck. (p. 126)

Is luck that important? Does determinations and hard work matter? Is the author saying being sensible or smart doesn't make much difference if your luck runs out?

I used to believe that one's success in life depended on how hard one worked, determination, etc. I was a good Republican! LOL However, the older I get the more I realize that although what one does has an impact on one's successes, luck also plays a major role. A former boss once explained that he found that the harder he tried, the luckier he got. I agree with that, but still realize the role that random luck has in outcomes. Another coworker once told about a quote from a wealthy soul (I think Malcolm Forbes) who responded when asked his advice on becoming financially successful, "Choose your womb very carefully." It is interesting how much of anyone's life is predetermined by this "choice". I remember how hard my daughter worked in her following the dream of becoming a basketball player and how in spite of her talent, hard work, and determination, lady luck (also known as the luck of the coaches one gets stuck with) wound up being primarily a bench warmer.

12. And yet, in the same chapter, Ian knows there may be angry people on the reserve, but is enraged with Pete's tone after almost missing the final exam ... thus ruining his chance of getting a passport out of Struan:

"You have a choice, whether or not you let yourself get drawn into all that crap! It's history! Some people are stuck in it, but you have a choice!"Pete, his eyes still closed, his face still turned to the sun, said, "You know what I like about you, man? You have such a simple view of life." (p. 130)

The oppressed usually understand the situation quite differently from the oppressors, so Pete probably feels the tensions between his and Ian's communities more deeply. What do you think, does Pete have a choice? Does Ian just not get it? Is it luck to be born into one family or another? And how does that impact your life?

Pete's quote above was one of my favorites that I have noted in the book. I remember in my own life how much easier things were when I had the simpler black and white philosophy of things, believing that things were either right or wrong and that there were fewer complexities in making choices. Although I believe that Pete (or anyone) has choices, these choices are not as easy as they may appear on the surface. I think that Ian doesn't get it at this point in his life, but have faith that he may later. He does seem like a very thoughtful person, but hasn't gotten beyond the fairy tale way of thinking. If one's ancestry isn't luck, what is it? The family one is born to has a wide range of heredity (physical and financial implications) as well as the environment that this family provides. I think that this early "luck" (or lack thereof) plays a major role in the chances one has in life and how one responds to things throughout life. Although it is true that how one responds to life's challenges and opportunities (with luck being a major factor in what those are) does determine how one's life turns out, even the responses are rooted in one's "luck" at birth.

13. What happens when we assume everyone thinks the way we do? Can you think of an example?

It would be boring if everyone thought the same way and there would be no point of asking for the opinions of others or even talking to one another since we would all be the same. However, I often find myself guilty of this assumption. One example from many years ago was when I noticed that my then preschool age son was wearing his underwear backwards. I gently commented about this to him and he looked at me as if I was crazy and replied, "I am a tiger and I have the hole there for my tail." This amused me considerably and helped me realize that each of us approaches life from different perspectives and all of our lives are so much richer because of our differences.

OSB discussion questions ~ chapters 1-9

14. We haven't talked about Jake's fall yet, when he was showing off and Arthur was tired of Jake's foolishness. Then IT happened, the defining event of their lives:

"Art!" -- his voice a shriek -- "I'm going to fall."

"Good," Arthur said. A word that would haunt him for the rest of his life.

He felt Jake fall. Felt his weight leave the bridge. Just like that.

What did you think of the two when you read that? Arthur later blames himself and always, always feels guilty. Should he feel guilty? Later, Arthur is confused that Jake doesn't tell their parents what Arthur had said. Why do you think Jake didn't tell?

15. After the casts came off, Jake had a limp. Why do you suppose Mary Lawson gave her character a limp? In the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, Jacob (the younger) has a limp after wrestling with an angel (or a man) on the night before meeting his brother 20 years after having cheated him out of their father's blessing. Do you think Mary Lawson had that story in mind when she was writing about Jacob and Arthur? Jake, of course, used that limp to his advantage.

16. Arthur was still in the eleventh grade at age 19, and a friend said to him:

"Why don't you just stop goin', Art? She can't make you. You're bigger'n she is." Arthur thought about it. Imagined himself standing in the kitchen, saying, "I ain't goin', Mum. That's all there is to it. I just ain't goin'." But he could never get the picture to come clear. He had never defied her and guessed he never would. (p. 107)

What did you think about Arthur at this age? What would you have wanted to say to him, if you were his friend? What would you have done in his place?

17. When Arthur was rejected by the army because his feet were flat, his mother said he'd be "free to carry on with his education." His father said, "If he can't fight, he has to farm." And Arthur thought, "Freedom. Nineteen years old, flat-footed and riddled with guilt, but free at last." (All quotes are from p. 114, hardback edition.) "Free at last" reminded me of Martin Luther King's speech, but in what way was Arthur now free? What did this feeling of freedom mean for Arthur?

18. Ian often seems angry or frustrated, but I could relate to the way he felt one day:

Ian cycled home, anger and frustration gnawing at him. He wished he could withdraw from everything -- go and live in a cave. He couldn't imagine how mankind had managed to make such a mess of things. (p. 131)

I (Bonnie) almost laughed because I remember when my children were small I had a half-way joke I'd tell people: "I intend to have a nervous breakdown, just as soon as I find the time." Has anyone else ever felt this way?

19. And here's how Cathy made Ian feel:

She was so enthusiastic, that was the problem. Her enthusiasm wore him out.

Has that ever happened to you?

20. The fellow who was charged in the fight which caused the death of the logger was arrested, and Ian wondered,

"What'll happen to him?"
"He'll be shipped down to the district jail in Haileybury. I think he's going on Monday. They've got a presiding judge there."

So many place names are made up by an author that I usually just make a mental note and skim over them, but this line stopped me in my tracks ... because someone from Haileybury, Ontario, Canada visited the blog this week! If you are still around, tell us a little about the area. If any of you Book Buddies are familiar with Struan or Haileybury or any other part of the book's setting, tell us about it, please.

OSB-DQ 10-12

10. Have you ever said something impulsively that you later regretted? How was it decided where you would go to school or what work you would do? Has irritation ever gotten you into trouble?

Have I ever sad something impulsive that I have regretted? So often, that I can't think of one time in particular right now. I ran away and got married (at 17 1/2) after an argument with my dad over the date. Is that impulsive enough? I ended up taking many years to finish college between raising children, a divorce and life in general. My work decided on me. I took a job in an industrial lab because the money was decent. I kept moving to different labs to make better money. I had three children to support. I guess you could say necessity decided my career.

11. Is luck that important? Does determinations and hard work matter? Is the author saying being sensible or smart doesn't make much difference if your luck runs out?

There is an element of luck to life. Unfortunately, often being lucky enough or unlucky enough, to be born a member of a particular race or group makes a large difference in how much hard work and determination one must expend. Being in the right place at the right time can be a matter of luck. Taking advantage of the opportunities presented us is not a matter of luck. Determination and hard work do matter, but as I stated above in some circumstances (such as birth group) one can get along without much of it or need to expend great amounts of both and to get anywhere at all.

13. What happens when we assume everyone thinks the way we do? Can you think of an example?

We all know what assuming makes out of us. I have made this mistake in reference to politics and found myself in an uncomfortable situation.

Jo

Shirley's answers to DQ

10. Ian gets very irritated when anyone assumes he would, of course, become a doctor like his father and grandfather before him, as in the scene with Mr. Hardy:

"Am I right to assume I'm speaking to the next Dr. Christopherson?"

He had smiled and Ian had felt irritation rising up in him like a wave. "I've decided I'd like to study agriculture," he said. ...

"There's an excellent school of agriculture in Guelph. Would you like to apply to that?"

Ian's heart started to thump. Was this it, then? Had he just decided his future in a single spasm of irritation? (pp. 116, 117)

Have you ever said something impulsively that you later regretted? How was it decided where you would go to school or what work you would do? Has irritation ever gotten you into trouble?

The most recent major case of foot in the mouth disease that I shudder when I think of was the night after my son's death. My youngest son had taken it very hard and after a horrible breakdown at the hospital, said that he needed to get away, left, and we didn't hear from him for several hours. It was with great relief when one of the boys' friends called and let me know that he was all right. When he finally came home, in my effort to comfort him I commented that things would seem better again and that we could perhaps figure out something for him to do for a career (he has been working various low paying jobs after dropping out of college and I have been troubled wondering how what he is going to do for a career). This was pathetic timing. How stupid could I get? He left again. His girlfriend called to let me know that he was o.k., he did meet with us for the funeral arrangements the next day, and I have avoided the subject since then.

The whole career issue is one that becomes rather touchy. My older son was happy doing tech work primarily at the local performing arts center. It didn't pay well so my husband and I encouraged him to get training in something else. He went to vo tech and received training to become an electrician and later earned an associate's degree. He did not like working as an apprentice electrician and later went back to his original job. In his room, one of the quotes he had hung on his door was a quote from George Burns, “I’d rather be a failure at something I enjoy than be a success of something I hate.” Brendan listened to his heart and was successful in his work both paid and as a volunteer in technical stage work.

Although I am concerned about my younger son's career, I am going to try to be a supportive listener and not offer unasked for advice.

Shirley
10/16/07

See previous comments HERE.

HELP on when to POST, when to COMMENT

For starters, remember this maxim:

WHEN IN DOUBT,
POST !
Some are still uncertain when something should be a post or a comment. It is true that in order to locate comments one has to try to remember whether there were comments before or not. I know everyone is trying to put things in the best place. We're all learning what works best for this version of Book Buddies, including me.

When it's about a book, POST.When it's chit-chat, COMMENT.
Most of the time, it would be best to POST you thoughts. If it's something like Granita's OT (off-topic) post, she (as an occasional Book Buddy) will be able to find your responses best as COMMENTS under her post.

I hope this helps.

Granita - OT

Hi Beloved BB's --

Thank you Bonnie for your email and invitation and for keeping in touch. I had to stop in to say hi. So nice to see so many familiar names gathered here -- Bonnie, Caboose, Denise, Gerry, Jo, Bookread, Marg, Margie, Margreet, Marylyn, Pamela, and Shirley -- wow! Some of you here now know I was one of the Buddies back from the 2003 days when Oprah kicked off the 'classics' version her book club with East of Eden.

Caboose, it's so nice to still hear from you occasionally. Pamela, congratulations on your South Beach success! Shirley, I'm so very sorry about your loss.

I have to catch you up on two things. First, I'm bursting at the seams to tell you that I returned this weekend from a trip to Europe, during which Margreet and I had a face to face meeting!! We've stayed in touch through the past couple of years although I've not been participating in the groups, and it was absolutely wonderful to get the chance to spend a day together! I flew into Amsterdam and hopped on a Eurail train, meeting Margreet in the town where she attended university. It was such a beautiful place. I loved the architecture and the canals. And best of all I loved getting to spend time with my dear friend Margreet! Thanks for being such a great hostess for the day, Margreet!

Second, I have to tell you that from the Netherlands I continued on to Tuscany, where I had the opportunity to live out our Book Buddies wrap party of Under the Tuscan Sun! A friend of mine rented a villa for a week and invited several people to join her. It was an unbelievable chance of a lifetime week, and time after time I flashed back on all the Buddies who were a part of our cyberparty at our virtual Italian villa back in 2003. Life imitating art?

Life is going quite well these days but I continue to feel time challenged with regard to finding balance between my personal and work life so for now I'm just here to say hi and say that I think of the Buddies often and hope you're all well. Although I haven't been an active participant in quite some time, it's remarkable to me that the discussions we had have served as the springboard for several great friendships, on and off the boards through the past few years. This is a great group of people, and I wish you continued enjoyable discussions!

All the best,
Granita

OSB Questions 10-13

Ok here goes:

10. Have you ever said something impulsively that you later regretted? How was it decided where you would go to school or what work you would do? Has irritation ever gotten you into trouble?

I think I have tried to forget things said on impulse. I'm not an impulsive person really but if I get angry enough I tend to say things I really don't mean. My husband is very competitive at everything, even our little tiny arguments. It's like he wants a fight, and he has to have the last word. So I tend to walk away, and he just yells more lol. Anyway, I remember one fight where I actually said something to the effect that he wasn't strong enough...oh I remember....he was trying to diet (Atkins) and I told his best friend to let me know how it goes because my husband doesn't have the willpower to stay on that diet. I felt absolutely horrible. I could see the look on his face was just pure shock and disappointment. I have always, since then, kept my feelings in check until I was for sure they needed to be voiced.

I wanted to go to school close to home, but not close enough that my parents could drop in at anytime. I ended up going to WVU, only 30 minutes from my parents house. But, I was completely on my own and they had to call before making the trip up here. But WVU is also a really good school and I wanted to go to law school here. Well, after trying to get in long enough to let my LSATs expire, I gave up on that idea. I graduated with a degree in Communication Studies (easiest thing to do after trying Accounting, I just wanted out) a minor in Business Admin (from so many Acct. classes) and a minor in Spanish (just wanted to learn to speak it). I think I faired pretty well lol.

See above story for irritation getting me into trouble with my husband LOL!!

11. Is luck that important? Does determinations and hard work matter? Is the author saying being sensible or smart doesn't make much difference if your luck runs out?

I'm not sure I believe in luck. I think determination and hard work are a huge part of things. I'm not sure that it would be fair in the whole scheme of things if some people are just luckier than others. I'm not sure we were put here on earth to be competitive in life like that. I believe there is a plan for everyone, which also includes the plans for the people they are meant to affect. Just like in the story, I think Arthur is the one who was meant to be obedient and trustworthy and hardworking because it was in his plans to teach that to Ian. So, I don't think luck has anything to do with it. ( I feel like I'm rambling lol)
In that passage, I don't think the author is saying that nothing matters but luck, I think it's Ian's entire attitude as of that moment. Hopefully it changes :)

12. What do you think, does Pete have a choice? Does Ian just not get it? Is it luck to be born into one family or another? And how does that impact your life?

I absolutely think Pete has a choice, but I'm not sure Pete sees it that way. I think Ian is the one who is saying, everyone has a choice, you can get out or you can stay. Just like he was thinking about it in the beginning when he realized that his father and grandfather both went to Toronto but ended up coming back. I don't think he saw their reasoning behind wanting to be back in Struan. I think Pete is the one who thinks that it's lucky that Ian was born into a doctor's family because then he gets to be a doctor. I don't think Pete sees that he has a choice to leave if he wants. I think it's a big impact on someone's life that doesn't see his choices. It limits them to what they think they can do, not what they've always wanted to do.


13. What happens when we assume everyone thinks the way we do? Can you think of an example?

In some weird, strange way the first things that came to my mind were Hitler and cults. I think that a cult arises from one person thinking that there are many people who believe like they do and that they should all get together to try to persuade others who don't think like they do. I just think assumptions are really bad and can lead to extreme decisions usually involving someone's life.
On the lighter side of things (lol that was weird) I think that assuming someone thinks like you could cause friendships, like Pete's and Ian's, to disintegrate. One person, usually the one assuming, tends to try to force the issue which causes the other person to get defensive and try to show why his views aren't like the assumers. Just a bad thing in general.

Finished OSB

Like scamper and Margreet I also have finished OSB and am waiting for more discussion questions. I hope I can participate without being influenced by the rest of the book.

OSB discussion questions ~ luck, life, and assumptions

Maybe having a few more questions will make it easier to discuss the book, even if you have gone beyond chapter 9 ... or have finished the whole book. Three of these questions are both about Ian.

10. Ian gets very irritated when anyone assumes he would, of course, become a doctor like his father and grandfather before him, as in the scene with Mr. Hardy:

"Am I right to assume I'm speaking to the next Dr. Christopherson?"

He had smiled and Ian had felt irritation rising up in him like a wave. "I've decided I'd like to study agriculture," he said. ...

"There's an excellent school of agriculture in Guelph. Would you like to apply to that?"

Ian's heart started to thump. Was this it, then? Had he just decided his future in a single spasm of irritation? (pp. 116, 117)

Have you ever said something impulsively that you later regretted? How was it decided where you would go to school or what work you would do? Has irritation ever gotten you into trouble?

11. The scene where Ian helped his father work on the cut and profusely-bleeding logger was very powerful. Ian himself was shocked that the man died under his hands between one breath and the next, and his meditations took him here:

Good luck. Maybe that's all it was. Maybe the whole of life depended not on how hard you tried, how determined you were, how sensible, how smart: maybe the whole shooting match depended on luck. (p. 126)

Is luck that important? Does determinations and hard work matter? Is the author saying being sensible or smart doesn't make much difference if your luck runs out?

12. And yet, in the same chapter, Ian knows there may be angry people on the reserve, but is enraged with Pete's tone after almost missing the final exam ... thus ruining his chance of getting a passport out of Struan:

"You have a choice, whether or not you let yourself get drawn into all that crap! It's history! Some people are stuck in it, but you have a choice!"

Pete, his eyes still closed, his face still turned to the sun, said, "You know what I like about you, man? You have such a simple view of life." (p. 130)

The oppressed usually understand the situation quite differently from the oppressors, so Pete probably feels the tensions between his and Ian's communities more deeply. What do you think, does Pete have a choice? Does Ian just not get it? Is it luck to be born into one family or another? And how does that impact your life?

13. What happens when we assume everyone thinks the way we do? Can you think of an example?
_______
NOTE: Those of you who are not reading the book may also jump in with your thoughts about luck, life, and assumptions. I hope you'll do that and let's all talk here.

OSB

I'm like Margreet, I gulped down OSB in one big gulp so am a bit afraid to post much for fear of spoilers, LOL. I find it VERY hard not to read modern novels ahead of a reading schedule, don't know why. I can do it with classics most of the time, but with modern novels before I know it I've just read the whole darn thing.

So now my opinions of Jake, Arthur, etc. are a bit tainted by what I know and when I knew it, sigh. But there are some events in the book I am eager to get your thoughts on, will just wait for catch up time...

Think GREEN today

On October 15th, bloggers around the web will unite to put a single important issue on everyone’s mind - the environment. Every blogger will post about the environment in their own way and relating to their own topic. The idea is to get everyone talking towards a better future. Follow this link and take a look.

Today I plan to WEAR GREEN and offer TIPS and CHALLENGES and IDEAS (like these) on my blogs:

Ideal Bite offers daily TIPS ON BEING GREEN.

Diane of Big Green Purse has a CHALLENGE:
Her "One in a Million" Campaign is urging a million women to shift $1,000 of money they'd spend in a year anyway to green products and services that can help protect the environment. It's important because:

Manufacturing to meet consumer demand drives pollution and climate change.
Pollution and climate change affect our health and safety.
If we use our consumer clout to improve manufacturing, we protect ourselves and the planet, too.

Because women spend $.85 of every dollar in the marketplace, we have the clout to make a difference. Hybrid cars? Organic food? Safe cosmetics? Green shopping has already had an impact.

Women are finding all kinds of ways to swap out "brown" products for "green."

Erin, a Green Purse Alerts! subscriber, joined the One in a Million Campaign at the beginning of this year. She recently sent the balance sheet she downloaded from the Big Green Purse website to help her track her eco purchases and report back on her pledge. It only took her six months to become "One in a Million." Her secret? She bought two water saving toilets for a total of almost $600, then made up the difference in organic groceries, safe cleansers, and organic potting soil.

For IDEAS on how you can swap your current purchases for green ones that would make a difference, visit the One in a Million campaign web page.

Some of the most important options (and ones that should be readily available in your neighborhood as well as on-line) include:

____ Organic, locally grown food (reduce pesticides)

____ Energy-efficient appliances (stop global warming)

____ Phthalate-free cosmetics (protect your health)

____ Fuel-efficient car (save energy, clear the air)

____ Fair trade, shade grown coffee (protect rainforests)

____ Non-toxic cleansers (protect your health, reduce toxins)